Being Inclusive and Arabel

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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby TheBlackSheep » 2017.03.20 19:01:53

I see the paladin was a terrible example, as this thread has now officially derailed.

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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby HellzYeah » 2017.03.20 19:29:46

While plots I worked on with Thersos demanded some semblance of secrecy I never turned people away from participating in them. There's a balance that can be reached with plots that allows people of all sorts to take part and plots (I can think of one in particular that I thought was the dumbest thing in recent memory) that demanded ABSOLUTE DO NOT TELL ANYONE ABOUT THIS PLOT secrecy. Don't run plots like that- You can leave parts hidden, but the greater plot available for anyone within reason to join. Most of the plots we have these days fall into this category and I'm very satisfied with that and have found that people generally like to get others involved with their plots. There is of course, an IC element to this where occasionally your In-Character reputation will cause people to absolutely not trust you to work with them. Sometimes you can get around this, and sometimes your PC is just too much of a scumbag to merit giving them a chance to "help" when they're more likely to just stab you in the back. There's a difference between keeping a plot a secret for "teh win" and keeping it from that one hyper shady guy who you KNOW you cannot trust IC. It's usually a pretty clear line.


When it comes to questing, though, less is more for me. I would, every single time, rather have a core group of two or three others that I know I can count on (plus one or two extras) than bring every stiff sitting in the spire on my quest trains. It's a balancing act where soon people stop contributing meaningfully and start becoming a liability. When you have 10 people on a quest it very easily turns into a total clusterfuck that the frontline (in these cases is often very small comparatively to that optimal small group,) cannot possibly contend with or help everyone at once and people start to die very quickly from small mistakes. Quests scaling out of control in relation to ChallengeRating instead of ACTUAL party strength and composition I think is the culprit here, but I don't think there's a way to accurately define what that actually is with any reasonable accuracy since it changes all the time and has always had dozens of definitions.
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby O'louth » 2017.03.21 07:00:40

Unless I am really FORCED TO, I will involve and invite every person I can. Like Thune, I believe in inclusiveness, even if I might lose to people who are far more focused on the win. I kicked 3 people out of the castle once, because I was doing something EXTREMELY sensitive. But otherwise, I will invite people to my secret plot meetings, I will spread out plot hooks so others can pursue them (Ask Era how I handed him plot hooks left and right when I first encountered Gawyn Carre). Do I win by doing it? No. Does it give me sweet loots or RP tokens? Nope. But, I am of the old CoA School of the Plot Wheel, that can only be turned by involving others, even if it seems booking dms for events gets you results 5 times faster.

That said. I hate questing (scripted) with large parties. Less EXP, Far harder spawns, and 3 times more people to share the same amount of loot with, not to mention RP goes out the window with more than 8 people on.

So In short, I am on team Sheep.
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My two cents

Postby Sophia Romanziere » 2017.03.21 10:01:37

Dagon literally destroyed one of my character concepts, did terrible things to me IC, his PC was a total dirtbag that I can't even talk about without getting mad... Yet the character I played after that one was Dagon's sister, and she loved his character to death: I retired her for him. We play League of Legends and Age of Empires and whatnot, often: we've bonded, despite our IC struggle. Tancred? His latest PC? We barely interact. See a pattern? IC does not equate OOC my friend. Yes, both my most recent PCs absolutely despise your current PC, but that doesn't mean I would not concept you for the next one or invite you to do X outside of Arabel.

All I have to say is: respect IC interactions if they are indeed IC, and do not internalize them. Do take in mind that your character is probably the most mechanically annoying of all bad guys possible: so sneaky and so unpredictable that it is a hazard to have him around for any character with int 12+ and a good alignment. Have you considered that people don't want to interact with the mechanical aspect of your character, instead of -you-? Because I sure as hell don't want to be online whenever I see your PC is on as well. I don't want to be checking my coin purse and counting my potions every five minutes.
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby Chips » 2017.03.21 10:11:09

^^^^^^
I don't particularly find much enjoyment in the realization that a pc can just waltz in, grab shit out of my inventory and walk away, without my being able to do anything about it.
And while I do respect that you're probably not scummy enough of a player to abuse the ability to do that, and won't grief people with it.
My character has an intelligence score above 14, and knows a threat (minor or major) when he see's one, and it'd be very out of character for that character not to treat a threat as a threat.
If you're roleplaying a character with the intention of being creepy on purpose, and succeeding at it, people pretty much have to roleplay being creeped out unless their character is desensitized to such things (or just don't roleplay well).

It's important to remember that while it is considerate for people to act slightly out of character for the sake of another players fun and enjoyment.
Playing a concept that puts people in a tough spot, where they HAVE to act out of character to include you in stuff, and then getting offended at them for staying in character, is just as inconsiderate (if not more) to them. As them not including you is inconsiderate to you.
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby cadiz_stoker » 2017.03.21 10:47:09

Because I sure as hell don't want to be online whenever I see your PC is on as well. I don't want to be checking my coin purse and counting my potions every five minutes.


Sheep has not only made it clear that he is doing this, but has made sure that it is very visible in game when he does from what I have seen, but has also justified stuff and allowed others to see what he has actually taken ooc in his diary posts.

We all have a right to hostile him and make his job more difficult if we think that it is going to be something that our character would be on the look out for now he has shown his hand.

Back on topic...

Sharing plots requires other people to actually come along and see what you are doing too. Don't ignore other peoples sendings because you don't see a direct reason for you to be there, go along and share your thoughts and receive others - that is what makes the wheel turn.
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby TheBlackSheep » 2017.03.21 12:23:14

So, instead of looking to get the biggest party possible, we should look towards hiring an optimal group of maybe four or five with us on our adventures to get the best out of it? Should we therefore, limit the party cap of quests to ensure this?

If that's the case, we should also ensure that those who are left out of these parties also have a chance to do something. If you're taking all five super frontliners along, leaving all the bards and whatnot useless shadowmancer sorcerers out, they'll have no chance of doing anything as they're either too afraid to adventure outside on their own, or don't trust enough on the mechanical capabilities of others left behind. OOC courtesy, in this regard, is very important I feel, as the server's future depends on it.

As for those that want to argue a basis on why they don't like my character, do so elsewhere. I know my character is controversial and everyone in CoAland has a reason to be exclusive of him for what he is. That will not change here. If you want to personally address issues you have with the char and the way I play, do so through a PM. I will be happy to discuss it there.

This thread is about whether or not you are happy with the way inclusion is currently being handled in CoA.

people wrote:I feel like this is summed up pretty easily. If you are excluding someone out of OOC fear of losing, do not do that.

Someone mentioned a rule once. DON'T BE A DICK.

Thinking outside the box for the sake of inclusion does not mean you're acting out of character. I do like what people said here. IMO, if you find your character abilities of inclusion limited by your own fear of loosing- you need to get over that fear.

I also see good examples made by a number of people here. Keep them coming!
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby kittenblack » 2017.03.21 12:30:51

I mean, if I can't participate in a quest, I can usually offer spells as a cleric, in exchange for prayers and be included in that manner. Once I get them, I sit and read manga on one side of my computer screen, waiting for the group to return and show me what magical items they found. For me, I don't actually need to attend a quest to roleplay, and thus, I'm usually the first one to step out of a party.

Now, obviously this doesn't hold true for other support roles, like bards and their short-lived songs. But low level bards can usually find a group, or do an easier quest where they can tank. Yesterday, I took two low levels out to leech me on a quest - I didn't push myself beyond what I was capable of (aka we didn't do the optional), and they still got great XP.
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby OrcLuv » 2017.03.21 13:21:02

I work best helping other people's plots. I would much rather be included in plots and stories, regardless of who you play. I'm really not the loot whore everyone makes me out to be. I would rather log in, have allies to do stuff with. Being alone with all the loot in the world really sucks.
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby kittenblack » 2017.03.21 13:29:33

OrcLuv wrote:I work best helping other people's plots. I would much rather be included in plots and stories, regardless of who you play. I'm really not the loot whore everyone makes me out to be. I would rather log in, have allies to do stuff with. Being alone with all the loot in the world really sucks.


You are the loot whore everyone makes you out to be. You want plots, loot, and lebul tin. :P We give documentary overtures about you in the VOIP.
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby SinisterPlank » 2017.03.21 14:32:47

Some quick thoughts on the initial questions posed

Do you think it's not against OOC courtesy to be exclusive in DM/Scripted quest parties of todays CoA?
A poorly worded leading question. I won't adress it. The question I will adress is: "Do you think there is a problem with OOC exclusion in DM/Scripted quests?"
The answer is No, I don't. Obviously there will be some conflict between, for example, lawful peace officials and notorious criminals, and it's perfectly fine and to be honest expected that these two won't get along well enough to go whomping dire rats together. OOC courtesy is an excelent concept to observe, but it is second to Roleplay, wich is what this server is all about. OOC courtesy is a way to let us get along as players inspiet of character conflict, it is not a carte blance excuse to break character for quests and xps and loot. Furthermore, OOC Courtesy goes both ways, if you choose to make a divisive character (like giant barbarian wereboars who literally eat peoples fingers off their hands) OOC courtesty demands you not judge someone for telling you to go away.

Should we be more inclusive in our playstyle than we currently are? Or is it just fine as it is?
CoA has an exceptionally inclusive playstyle. Top of the line as far as what my server hopping days have taught me.

Is ignoring or avoiding interaction with other characters part of a healthy PvP, and therefore good for the server?
Poorly worded and leading question. Yes, if this was a thing that actually happened it would be bad. Luckilly for us all, this is at most very rare. Some notes on this is primarilly, not all players are interested in a conflict heavy playstyle, and for these people avoiding conflict interaction is actually the Recommended Approach.

And if your character doesn't want interaction with the character, should you be OOCly exclusive as well?
I don't understand this question. If a character tells your character to sod off, that's that character telling your character to sod off. There's nothing OOC about it. No one has any obligation to include someone their characters wouldn't include. In fact, there is an expectation that you don't. You may be confusing this with OOC Courtesy, OOC Courtesy talks about how to not be a dick to people inspite of your character trying to pick a fight with theirs. It's about Respectful in Conflict, not about breaking character so people can quest and get loots easier.
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby TheBlackSheep » 2017.03.21 15:56:02

I'd dare say 50% of our time is spend on quests, so why not invite the opportunity to have conflict while you are getting that suh-weet xp?

In a case where you're facing off against a wereboar that eats fingers:

If you are an evil natured character: Would you try to hire the scumbag to eat someone elses fingers? Or, if you are in conflict with the beast, would you try to lure him along to try to eat his fingers instead?

If you are a good natured character (read: Not paladin): Would it be more harmful to leave an evil finger-eating wereboar alone in the woods/spire, or have it where you can see and ensure it doesn't go around eating dem fingers?


I can understand that avoiding a madman is a typical behavior coming from a commoner, but adventurers are different, seeing how used they are to work with all sorts of crazy shit. Why anyone would design their characters nature to be exclusive because someone is a crazy wereboar that eats fingers, is beyond my understanding.

There are ways beyond the "My character is good, so he can't work with ebul"-mentality. There are ways to break out of the box. If you find that way, you'll find out it's much easier to breed healthy conflict.
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby SithSpawn » 2017.03.21 16:07:30

TheBlackSheep wrote:If you are an evil natured character: Would you try to hire the scumbag to eat someone elses fingers? Or, if you are in conflict with the beast, would you try to lure him along to try to eat his fingers instead?

If you are a good natured character (read: Not paladin): Would it be more harmful to leave an evil finger-eating wereboar alone in the woods/spire, or have it where you can see and ensure it doesn't go around eating dem fingers?


What about Lawful vs Chaotic too? Prime examples would be LE and CG characters, they would have radically different ways of going about things. A well played character on either of these two spectrums might struggle to find allies and friends if you only focus on the Good vs Evil aspects of a personality.

A Chaotic Good character might decide to take action and kill or remove a threat and then have the weight of the law and characters who support the ideals of Lawfulness oppose them, or would even Lawful characters forgive them because "they did the right thing"?

A Lawful Evil person might pursue goals and agendas that might be alienating to your character but have the committed any wrongs lawfully?

What nuances do either LE or CG bring? what agendas do they try to promote? what areas can you work with this character with? what areas must you oppose?

If your character is Lawful, can you work with an Evil character if they're Lawful?
If your character is Lawful, can you work with a Good character if they're Chaotic?
If your character is Chaotic, can you work with an Good character if they're Lawful?
If your character is Chaotic, can you work with a Evil character if they're Chaotic?

I tend to find people focus quite heavily on the Good/Evil axis but neglect the Lawful/Chaotic axis and what entails. There are ways to reach out to people without OOC justifications based purely on your alignment if you remember the other axis.

Your full alignment is not there for your convenience, it's there to express the entirety of your character and motivations.
Last edited by SithSpawn on 2017.03.21 16:31:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby AronFF » 2017.03.21 16:29:39

The two axis is a nice idea, but three steps are too shallow to show all possible personalities' differences.
Can't we just roleplay people with all their flaws and such?
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Re: Being Inclusive and Arabel

Postby Zool » 2017.03.21 16:31:44

You don't have to quest with someone to include them.
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